America’s Next Bill Clinton!


Can I still be “masculine” and be a feminist?

My apogogies for the lack of posting. I’ve been extremely busy, and extremely sick. I am still kind of walking around in a haze, not having eaten since Tuesday because of this really bad flu … 

Can I be a feminist and still, at the same time, hold on to my masculinity? I mean, if a female feminist can still cling on to her “womanhood” and be a feminist, why can’t I be the same? If a woman can still wear make-up and high heels and be a feminist, why can’t I be masculine and still be a feminist?

I bring this up because lately, I’ve been charged with not being a feminist because I still enjoy male privilege.

The most serious charge is that I still want power – that in having political ambitions, rather than giving up power, I am clinging on and going after power.

But if I am using such power for something good – feminism, why is it so wrong?

So what if I enjoy a good fight? So what if, upon hearing a Navy guy make an anti-women, anti-feminist comment at the bar, and acting like a misogynist objectifying jackass, I challenge him to a fight? Sure, it’s violence; but it’s violence for feminism?

So what if I enjoy the sense of women (sexually or otherwise) or the taste of beer, or that on Sundays, I am watching football? So what if I love the feeling of being able to shoot my M-16 so accurately that i can hit a target 500 meters away? I am still a feminist.

I can still be tender, loving, caring, and I can still stick by my values and convictions.

To be sure, those who accused me of such are 2nd Wavers, those who live in their own worlds, reject what is reality, and just are “radical.”

I like sex, I like beers, I like violence, I like football, and I still speak out on behalf of human and women’s rights.

I still fall in love I still enjoy wooing women, I still enjoy wearing my heart on my sleeve.

I love being the center of attention. I love power. I love being in control.

But I would never harm, objectifying, hurt, or deny women of their humanly rights.

Why am I not a feminist?

A girl I just spoke to told me one can still be masculine and “manly” and be a good person and a feminist and that I am an example of such.

I shouldn’t give a fuck what the 2nd Wave thinks. But I still need to give up male privilege, as it is how we pro-feminist males are supposed to act.

What am I to do? What’s a guy supposed to do? If I give up masculinity, all that’s in me will be gone. I’d be left with no passion, no drive, no ambition. This is not because it’s what defined me as a man, but it’s because it’s who I am.

I want to be a man, but I still want to be a feminist.

Thoughts?

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24 Comments so far
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You can be masculine and a feminist.

If you enjoy a fight, it’s all good. If you challenge someone to a fight, it’s all good, however respect they may deny the challenge. If you still pursue them, it’s harassment. If you strike them, it’s assault.

By the way, women aren’t the only one with issues. Men have issues too: child custody is given to the woman over the man, women receive lighter sentences than men for the same crimes (Blacks receive more time for the same crime than men), violence against men is considered ”funny & acceptable”, boys are falling behind at school, etc., women receive more health funding (talk about privilege), etc. FYI, the wage gap is a myth. It’s been proven false over and over. In fact, the only statistic feminists can give me stating the wage gap are from feminist sources. Those are no more reliable than masculist sources. Sometimes, they’ll give me a source stating women make less, but not all factors are considered nor anywhere does it say it is due to discrimination.

Comment by dnxx1

I’m not denying women have no issues (because they do) but then again, I’m not deluding myself into thinking life is all sweet and rosy because I’m a man.

Comment by dnxx1

Usually, I let comments go as is, but I feel a responsibility to call you out on this.

Firstly, it’s false that women’s health are given more attention and research (and funding) as are male-oriented health. If that were the case, explain to me why birth control is not paid for under insurers but Viagra is. Clearly, health is still an issue in which it pays to be men and not women.

As for thr $.77 to the dollar, I am not sure what you mean by “feminist sources,” but I don’t imagine Kim Gandy and NOW running around making up statistics to support arguments. Rather, as feminists, we’d much be happier seeing equitable pay rather than making up statistics to fit our arguments.

Clearly, you have an agenda – and I got the ball rolling, and am hoping another feminist reader will set you straight.

Comment by profeministmale

[…] 26, 2007 by L What follows is a critique of ProFeministMale’s most recent post, “Can I Still Be ‘Masculine’ and a Feminist?“  PFM and I have conversed with each other via our blogs in the past, and my basic take on […]

Pingback by ProFeministMale and Violence Lust « Editorializing the Editors

Hey, Marc. I’ve responded to this post in my blog here. What I wanted to say was too long for a comment.

As an aside, I hope it’s interesting to you that your first commenter here, dnxx1, is both in favor of violence and anti-feminism.

Comment by L

Hi, L, I noticed that, too. A lot to consider, of course. I am more than inclined to listen to you. 🙂

Comment by profeministmale

Pardon my language, I’m in a snippy mood tonight, but f@ck anyone who tries to tell you you’re not a feminist, for whatever reason. Last I checked being a feminist meant wanting equal rights for men and women. Period. That’s the bottom line. Just b/c you;re not doing absolutely everything 100% right according to someone else’s agenda doesn’t take away your beliefs or your passion to make this world a better place.

And dnxx1… give me a friggin break. No it’s not all sunshine and roses for men, but who said it is? BTW how many men do you know who’ve been sexually/physically abused? Is it 1 in 3? B/c those are the numbers for women. How much do you pay for healthcare every year? Oh, what’s that? That’s right, men don’t have to pay $40 a month for birth control pills. Nor go to the gynocologist every year. And I’d like to see your sources on the wage gap being proven false “over and over.” I’ve seen studies that said that for the exact same position women get about $.90 to a man’s dollar, which is higher than the normal quoted across-the-board stat, but that’s still a gap.

Comment by Marcy

Male feminist:

http://www.window.state.tx.us/comptrol/fnotes/fn9711.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/health/663688.stm

Above are your ”sources.” Happy?
”If that were the case, explain to me why birth control is not paid for under insurers but Viagra is.”
What does Viagra being covered by insurers have to do wit more money going to women’s health?

”I don’t imagine Kim Gandy and NOW running around making up statistics to support arguments. Rather, as feminists, we’d much be happier seeing equitable pay rather than making up statistics to fit our arguments.”
Then where do the statistics come from? The Moon? Stop speaking as if you represent feminism. You’re just one man who doesn’t even know what ”masculine” means otherwise you wouldn’t be asking if it’s possible to be ”masculine and a feminist.” Is it possible to be Jewish and a Nazi? Why of course; some Jews were Nazis–traitors.

Marci:

”That’s right, men don’t have to pay $40 a month for birth control pills.”
Don’t have sex if you can’t afford it. Simple, huh?
”Nor go to the gynocologist every year.”
Sorry, that’s biological, not cultural. Nice try though.

Comment by dnxx1

L:

You wouldn’t be illiterate by any chance? Where did I favor violence? The ”male feminist” said he would challenge any man who dared make a sexist joke to a fight. I responded by saying it is acceptable but if you strike them first it is assault.

And I’m not ”anti-feminist.” I am ”anti-gender feminism.”

I think it’s time for your diaper change, buddy.

Comment by dnxx1

Hi dnxx1.

You wouldn’t be illiterate by any chance? Where did I favor violence?

Wow, nice dig. I am literate, thanks. You said, “If you enjoy a fight, it’s all good.” Consensual violence is still violence. This is why I said that you’re in favor of violence. Let me know if you want more explanation.

Just because I don’t agree with you about what you said doesn’t mean you need to say things like, “I think it’s time for your diaper change, buddy.” That’s totally uncalled for.

Comment by L

L:

OK, sorry for that one. I was having a bad day.

Anyway, I don’t favor violence. Just because I said if he enjoys fighting it’s all good, does not mean he has to fight.

If some guy liked guns, it’s all good (provided he does not kill anyone or commits any crime(s)). Besides, he’s the one who said he liked fighting, not me.

Again, sorry for that insult.

Comment by dnxx1

I realize Marc said it, not you, which is why I initially replied to Marc, and not you. Thanks for clarifying your stance, though I’m still not sure how saying “it’s all good” to enjoying a fight isn’t a statement in favor of violence. Fighting requires two (or more) people and thus cannot be compared to shooting a gun.

You actually insulted me twice in this thread, and plenty of other times on my own blog. I don’t particularly care if you’re having a bad day — if you want to have a reasoned discussion, you also have to use reason, or you shouldn’t participate. Ad hominem attacks get old really quickly.

Comment by L

Masculinity is a gender role. Feminism is about doing away with (or at least, rethinking) gender roles which ascribe power and control to one half of humanity and weakness and submission to the other half of humanity. Guess how gender roles do that.

<blockquote cite=”I like sex, I like beers, I like violence, I like football”>

Nothing wrong with liking sex, beer, or football. People of all sexes and gender identities like those things. Why do you like violence?

Comment by snobographer

Meh–I’d finish this blog post with, “I want to be myself, but…” not “I want to be a man, but…”

I think it’s a little more accurate about everything you described here. Do you?

The way I see it, there are certain types of things that really suit you, and you got introduced to specific versions of those suited activities/feelings/etc. through being raised “as a man.” Football, for instance. Guns. Fighting.

Y’know what? I’d say…acknowledge that there’re certain underlying tendencies for gratification out of activities that made you choose these things out of all the offerings you were given as a boy->man. There’s something about you, for example, that did not take to, say…ummmmm…basketball. Also in the “men’s realm,” but not your thing.

Well, I’ll bet there’s something that would please you from the “women’s realm” of activities or the “gender-neutral realm” of activities for the same reason you were drawn to football in the men’s realm–and that there’s something that wouldn’t really please you from the “women’s realm” or the “gender-neutral realm” of activities for the same reason that you weren’t particularly drawn to basketball in the men’s realm.

See what I’m saying?

So…how would this play into life decisions?

I think it means don’t give up the hobbies & interests you already have, but whenever your social interactions lead you to being around someone who might introduce you to something new from one of the other realms, give it a try. Make the connections of what you like and what you don’t like from the other realms.

That will not only enrich your life by giving you even more fun things you’re a bit addicted to & love, but then when you meet people who aren’t into football or shooting or fighting or political powermongering but are into these “women’s”/”gender neutral” activities that you’ve recently found you like, too, you can say, “Oh! You’d totally love football/shooting/fighting/politicking! Come do it with me” and actually have a chance of having picked someone who really would enjoy those things if introduced to them.

And then it’ll cycle back to someone doing that to you from their realm again and your interests expanding…

…and back to you bringing someone into the interests you found through “conventional masculinity’s” activity options…

…and over the decades of your life, you and the people you interact with will mingle gender participation in activities just by knowing who you are and sharing the tastes you’ve found that suit those personal traits off the “menus” you were offered earlier in life!

Comment by Katie

I see no reason why you can’t be “masculine” and a feminist. Just because a particular activity has been tagged “male” by the society doesn’t mean that you can’t honestly enjoy it. What’s key is that you enjoy activities for what they are, not because as a male, you’re “supposed” to enjoy it. The same applies for “feminine” or “neutral” activities. There’s no moral high card for hobbies.

Comment by RJ

Dear Sir,
The response to your question, “Can I still be “masculine” and be a feminist?” depends entirely on who is entittled to define masculinity on your behalf. Masculinity and feminisim are not anthietical to each other so long leading feminists are allowed to define masculinity as they see fit. In other words, if you’re comfortable allowing many different people telling you what it means to be a man, then yes, you can still be a feminist. You cannot be a feminist and a man at the same time, if you do not allow other feminists to control and decide on your behalf what it means to be a man.

If however, you insist, as I do, on defining masculinity and manhood on your own terms, then you cannot be a man and a feminist at the same time without conflict. The feminist ideology cannot prevail while men define themselves on their own terms, and vice versa.

This is not to say that one is necessarily better than the other; but make no mistake. One is primarily submissive in nature, the other is the conscious decision to take ownership of masculinity.

Regards,
TimberWolf

Comment by TimberWolf

PFM,

See how they turn on you?

It is IMPOSSIBLE to be an accepted feminist male. It’s a complete oxymoron.

I hope you think all this over and see that where you *really* belong is in the Mens Rights Movement.

Comment by Exposing Feminism

Timber – thanks for a thoughtful response – and welcome.

Expose – Yeah, it’s really impossible – oh yeah. Let me just jump to your side, like, right now – as soon as I finish cutting patriarchy at the knees.

What the fuck do you have to offer me in a men’s right group that I believe in? Nothing. Don’t you losers just sit around and whine about how women are oppressing you?

Comment by ProFeministMale

Katie – I am glad you found the blog, and thanks for a thoughtful response. Lately, this blog has been missing that, due to these MRA idiots coming over …but it’ll be fine. I looked at your blog – and am actually going to start reading it regularly. 🙂

Comment by ProFeministMale

PFM,

‘Don’t you losers just sit around and whine about how women are oppressing you?’

Can you explain how feminism differs?

Comment by Exposing Feminism

ExposingFeminism:

“‘Don’t you losers just sit around and whine about how women are oppressing you?’
Can you explain how feminism differs?”

So are you, like, admitting that is all MRA’s do? OMG, how ironic. Where as you do get different kinds of feminists with differing opinions, all MRAs are the same: Blaming feminists for all the problems in their lives that they probably would have to go through reguardless of feminism ever existing or not. Child custody, VAWA “laws”, ladies nights (yes, this is a big one!!!), boys failing school, lack of male teachers, health care, etc… I wonder if any of these people actually research the history and laws surrounding these issues, otherwise they may think differently.

Comment by MorbodSoridid

Ok, I am a men’s rights activist and a feminist. Yes you can be masculine and a feminist. No you shouldn’t really be voilent ever, whether or not it has anything to do with feminism. I personally know how to fight very well, seeing as I have learned jujitsu, but hate fighting. Don’t let anyone tell you how you should and shouldn’t act, except maybe on the violence, because its illegal, unless you mean hunting. We should focus on fixing both genders problems. The wage gap and everything that objectifies women, for women, and the gap in education, and in the criminal jsutice system for men.

Comment by Brian

Sorry, bro, the term for you is “mangina.” You can not be masculine and act like you have a cunt. You can only be a pathetic, pussy whipped, mangina.

Time to put your mama behind you and become a man.

Comment by Bob

HEY, KKK man, How many blacks and men did you lynch today???? You hatemongers will burn in hell for all eternity!!!! Only Jesus can save you from being crucified in eternal hellfire!!Getting laid by insulting your brother won’t get you there!! HAHAHAHAHa

Comment by Jeff




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